AlfvanBeem · CC0 · 208B Grand Caravan in the Netherlands, modified with roller door for parachuting operations; skydivers sitting on the cabin floor are visible inside the rear roller doorThe Caravan programme began in the early 1980s, with the prototype flying in 1982. Its high wing, fixed gear and large cabin were organised around practical utility work. The longer 208B developed into the Grand Caravan as well as dedicated freight configurations.
Wheeled aircraft, cargo pods and amphibious floats give the family several recognisable forms. Simulator versions also differ sharply in cockpit philosophy, from modern glass panels to analogue conversions and new standalone aircraft. Each product has its own cockpit and systems description.
Cessna 208 Caravan · Specifications (208 Caravan) · real aircraft; source units retained
Meer over dit vliegtuig op AirframeDB
Cessna launched the Caravan programme in 1981, flew the prototype in 1982 and began deliveries in 1985. The stretched, freight-focused 208B Super Cargomaster followed, with certification in 1986; the first production Grand Caravan was delivered in 1990. Passenger services, freight, government work and humanitarian flying became recurring uses for the family.
The manufacturer’s timeline places standard G1000 avionics in 2008 and the start of Grand Caravan EX deliveries in 2013, with the PT6A-140 engine. G1000 NXi followed as standard equipment in 2017. These changes explain some of the differences between older Caravan accounts and later EX cockpits, alongside the choice of landplane or amphibious configuration.
First flight: December 9, 1982
Horne prepared in a FlightSafety simulator before moving to the real Grand Caravan. The sessions introduced its glass cockpit and approach work, but the aircraft itself still made an impression: reaching the flight deck meant climbing a ladder, and the cockpit had the scale of a much larger working machine. The demonstration aircraft carried a cargo pod and TKS equipment.
Flying close to its maximum weight, he found that the ailerons and rudder asked for deliberate effort. Changes in configuration brought more trimming, while the stall exercises felt comparatively mild. Landing introduced the practical effect of the large propeller’s drag and the need to coordinate power carefully. His simulator preparation preceded the flight with Oliver.
Hitchen approached the Grand Caravan EX with the expectations of a piston pilot and some apprehension about its size and turbine engine. Wilson took care of departure before handing over for airwork. The controls initially seemed heavy, and Hitchen repeatedly overshot headings as he adjusted to an aircraft with more momentum than his usual mount.
Familiarity softened that first impression: he came to find it responsive once he understood how much input it wanted. Wilson coached the descent, including the need to manage speed, and Hitchen made his first Caravan landing with the wind conveniently aligned with the runway. His humour about breaking his usual first-landing jinx gives the report its character. It remains an introduction under a demonstrator pilot’s guidance, with the pleasure of discovering that a large aircraft could become approachable.
Humphries was considering what aviation might become after retiring from legal practice. People had asked about flights to court appearances, and the Caravan suggested a possible combination of business transport and family use. Before the demonstration, he worked through a lengthy FlightSafety manual, trying to arrive with some understanding of an aircraft larger than his usual flying involved.
Allenbaugh’s guidance helped turn that preparation into an enjoyable flight. Humphries hand-flew throughout and was pleased by the roll response, the cockpit view and the comfortable ride through turbulence. Air conditioning had its own appeal in the Texas heat. Back on the ground, he was enthusiastic but still weighing the idea. He had not made a purchase decision or established a charter operation.
The Caravan programme began in the early 1980s, with the prototype flying in 1982. Its high wing, fixed gear and large cabin were organised around practical utility work. The longer 208B developed into the Grand Caravan as well as dedicated freight configurations.
The factory starting point selects Cessna 208B Grand Caravan across MSFS 2024, MSFS 2020, X-Plane 12, X-Plane 11.
Spring resistance builds with the selected airspeed response. A separate aerodynamic term adds speed-dependent control load.
Valid trim provides the configured pressure relief. Autopilot following is enabled for supported control references.
Cessna describes mechanical primary-control linkages, proportional roll spoilers and aileron servo tabs that reduce wheel effort. Published Caravan testing describes heavier roll than pitch in an older 208B and lighter controls after slowing from cruise in an EX. Those accounts supply qualitative family context. The information manual documents a stall-warning horn, not a mechanical stick shaker. Short-body, Grand Caravan, cargo and amphibious configurations remain distinct.
The gains are normalized profile settings. They describe the chosen effect balance; hand force depends on the device and its output limits. IAS references are tuning values rather than operating limits. Physical acceptance of this revision remains pending.
De uiteindelijke totaalschaal over alles wat het model produceert, vóór de apparaatbegrenzing.
Meer: alles (veer, belastingen, effecten) wordt samen sterker.
Minder: alles wordt samen zachter.
Waarom hier: Scales overall profile strength while preserving effect balance, subject to device and output limits.
De basiscentreerkracht die de stick terug naar het midden trekt. Elke andere kracht stapelt hierop. Te laag en de stick voelt slap in normale vlucht; te hoog en hij vecht tegen je hand en maskeert de kleinere signalen erbovenop.
Meer: een steviger centreren dat de hand meer weerstaat.
Minder: een slappere stick die alleen op aerodynamische belasting leunt.
Waarom hier: Mechanical links and servo-tab/roll-spoiler assistance motivate the selected speed-dependent yoke response; related flight reports support a qualitative roll-heavy balance. The baseline spring is 0.58. Its low-speed blend reaches baseline strength at 83 KIAS.
Operating ManualCarenado C208B Grand Caravan HD SeriesGrand Caravan EXCessna 208B Caravan I flight report, May 1989Cessna 208B G1000 Pilot's Operating HandbookA Caravan ExperienceCessna Caravan family referenceEen kleine neutrale zone rond het midden waar de veer stil blijft, zodat minieme bewegingen in rust niet ratelen. Breder is rustiger maar losser; smaller is preciezer maar kan rond het midden trillen.
Meer: een rustiger maar losser midden, met meer speling.
Minder: een strakker midden dat in rust kan trillen.
Waarom hier: Sets travel around the centre before the baseline spring resists. Smaller values engage it sooner.
Waarom hier: Adds smoothly ramped resistance outside the centre deadband. Zero removes this preload.
Een masterschaal over beide aangehouden asbelastingen, toegepast vóór hun onafhankelijke balans. Profielen laten dit normaal met rust en stemmen de twee asbelastingen af.
Meer: beide assen laden zwaarder.
Minder: beide assen worden samen lichter.
Waarom hier: The aerodynamic-load gain is 0.9 with an indicated-speed reference of 150 KIAS. This supplies speed-dependent loading alongside the spring.
De snelheid waarbij de veer volle sterkte bereikt. Tussen het begin en dit punt wordt het centreren geleidelijk steviger naarmate de luchtstroom over de roeren groeit.
Waarom hier: Sets the IAS where the low-speed blend reaches baseline strength; high-speed stiffening also uses it.
Hoeveel het centreren zelf met snelheid verstijft, bovenop de uitslagbelastingen. Nul houdt het middengevoel constant; meer laat de stick harder centreren op kruissnelheid en losser in het circuit.
Meer: een midden dat duidelijk verhardt met snelheid.
Minder: een constant middengevoel op elke snelheid.
Waarom hier: The high-speed spring-stiffening gain is 0.25. It strengthens the permitted spring response above 83 KIAS, with the squared-speed ratio capped at 5.
De bovengrens van snelheidsgedreven centreerverstijving, zodat zeer snelle vlucht de veer niet onbegrensd kan opwinden.
Meer: meer totale verstijving toegestaan op hoge snelheid.
Minder: de verstijving stopt eerder.
Waarom hier: Limits the squared airspeed ratio used for high-speed spring stiffening; it is not a device-force cap.
De aangehouden rolbelasting uit rolroeruitslag en snelheid, onafhankelijk van pitch gebalanceerd. Samen met de hoogteroerbelasting bepaalt dit de stuurharmonie waar recensenten het over hebben.
Meer: zwaardere rolkrachten.
Minder: lichtere, levendigere rolroeren.
Waarom hier: Roll and pitch aerodynamic scales are 1.3 and 1, respectively. They set the aerodynamic axis balance. No custom spring-travel curve is enabled.
De aangehouden pitchbelasting uit hoogteroeruitslag en snelheid, onafhankelijk van rol gebalanceerd. Dit is de hoofdhendel achter het pitchgewicht van een type. Hij raakt rolroer-, veer-, trim- of buffetkrachten niet.
Meer: zwaardere aangehouden pitchkrachten op snelheid.
Minder: een lichter hoogteroer, minder spierkracht om vast te houden.
Waarom hier: Scales pitch aerodynamic loading; pitch spring travel and trim responses are separate settings.
Een plafond op elke gestage pitch- of rolkracht voordat die het apparaat bereikt, ter bescherming tegen beuken of verzadigen van de hardware bij stevige manoeuvres.
Meer: hogere gestage krachtpieken vóór afkapping.
Minder: een zachter plafond; harde manoeuvres vlakken eerder af.
Waarom hier: Caps directed-force output. Native spring effects and device limits remain separate.
Waarom hier: Sets the travel used to ramp in centre preload. Wider intervals make its onset more gradual.
Schakelt het lage-snelheidsvenster van de veeraangrijping in (start/vol-knopen hierboven). Uit betekent een constante veer op alle snelheden.
Waarom hier: Allows baseline spring strength to rise with indicated airspeed where the control law permits it.
Hoeveel van de veer overleeft bij stilstand, voordat luchtsnelheid aerodynamische kracht kan opbouwen. Een hoge vloer houdt de geparkeerde stick stevig; een lage geeft het losse, kabelslappe gevoel van een geparkeerd licht vliegtuig.
Meer: een stevigere stick geparkeerd en tijdens taxiën.
Minder: een slappe stick geparkeerd die pas met snelheid ontwaakt.
Waarom hier: Sets low-speed spring strength as a fraction of baseline when blending is enabled. One keeps full strength.
De snelheid waarbij de veer vanaf zijn lage-snelheidsvloer richting volle sterkte begint te klimmen: de besturing die 'tot leven komt' tijdens de startrol.
Waarom hier: Sets the IAS where the low-speed spring blend starts rising. This is a feel threshold, not a flight limit.
De aangewezen snelheid waarbij de aerodynamische belasting haar ontworpen volle niveau bereikt. Hij verankert de hele belastingscurve aan het echte snelheidsbereik van het vliegtuig: een 172 laadt op tegen 110 knopen, een jet veel later.
Meer: belastingen komen later; de stick blijft langer licht.
Minder: belastingen komen eerder en de kruisvlucht weegt zwaarder.
Waarom hier: Sets the IAS reference for aerodynamic loading. It is an estimate, not published cruise TAS or a flight limit.
Hoe sterk hoogteroertrim de vastgehouden pitchkracht verlicht en verschuift waar de stick tot rust komt. Op 100 % heeft een goed getrimd vliegtuig geen vastgehouden druk nodig, de trim-de-last-weg-werkwijze van echt vliegen.
Meer: trim neemt meer vastgehouden kracht weg; op 100 % heft volle trim hem op.
Minder: je blijft kracht houden, zelfs getrimd.
Waarom hier: Pitch-trim relief remains a selected approximation of pressure reduction, separate from airframe length, cargo or amphibian equipment. Pitch authority 0.35 provides load relief and permitted centre movement; roll authority is 0.18.
Operating ManualCarenado C208B Grand Caravan HD SeriesGrand Caravan EXCessna 208B Caravan I flight report, May 1989Cessna 208B G1000 Pilot's Operating HandbookA Caravan ExperienceCessna Caravan family referenceDezelfde verlichting voor roltrim. De meeste GA-types hebben geen echte rolroertrim, dus dit blijft op nul; types met roltrim krijgen een passende waarde.
Meer: roltrim neemt meer vastgehouden kracht weg.
Minder: roltrim doet minder.
Waarom hier: Scales supported roll-trim relief and permitted centre movement. Zero removes roll response.
Rollende oppervlaktetrilling uit wielsnelheid en ondergrondtype: asfalt, gras of grind onder het onderstel.
Meer: een sterkere oppervlaktetextuur in de stick.
Minder: gladder taxiën.
Waarom hier: Sets rolling texture strength, modified by speed, surface and undercarriage configuration.
Korte losse stoten van uitzetvoegen, sporen en ruw oppervlak, die het doorlopende gerommel accentueren.
Meer: scherpere stoten van voegen en sporen.
Minder: zachtere gronddetails.
Waarom hier: Sets gear-bump texture during ground motion, separate from touchdown impact.
De speciale stall-stickshakerzoem, geactiveerd door het eigen overtrekwaarschuwingssysteem van het vliegtuig. Alleen types met een echte shaker krijgen een waarde; de rest steunt op aerodynamisch buffet en de hoorn.
Meer: een hardere shaker.
Minder: een discretere shaker.
Waarom hier: Sets triggered shaker strength; inactive while the shaker feature is disabled.
Casco-schudden bij het naderen van de overtrek en terwijl de overtrekwaarschuwing actief is: hoe luid deze vleugel aankondigt dat hij ontevreden is. Types met een scherpe afbreek krijgen bescheiden buffet en laten de hoorn de waarschuwing dragen.
Meer: een sterker trillen vóór de overtrek.
Minder: een discretere vleugel; de hoorn draagt de waarschuwing.
Waarom hier: Sets stall-buffet strength. Zero removes the cue without changing simulator stalls or warnings.
Transsoon buffet bij het naderen van de Machlimiet. Betekenisvol voor jets nabij MMO, nul voor zuigers en turboprops die er nooit komen.
Meer: een sterker transsoon buffet nabij de Machlimiet.
Minder: gladder vliegen op hoge Mach.
Waarom hier: Sets high-Mach buffet strength; onset and full-strength thresholds are separate.
Laagfrequente casco-trilling met kleppen uitgeslagen in de luchtstroom, in het snelheidsvenster waar ze de lucht echt bewerken.
Meer: ruwer vliegen met werkende kleppen.
Minder: zachtere naderingskleppen.
Waarom hier: Sets flap buffet at the configured position and speed gates. Flap movement texture is separate.
Casco-getrommel van intrekbaar onderstel dat in de luchtstroom hangt. Nul voor types met vast onderstel, waar het casco nooit van vorm verandert.
Meer: meer getrommel met het onderstel uit.
Minder: schoner vliegen met onderstel uit.
Waarom hier: Sets gear aerodynamic buffet; movement and ground-contact cues are separate.
De eenmalige dreun als de wielen de baan raken, geschaald op daalsnelheid: een zachte landing fluistert, een stevige aankomst bonkt.
Meer: een hardere dreun bij de landing.
Minder: zachtere aankomsten.
Waarom hier: Sets landing-impact strength; landing telemetry and response shape determine the pulse.
Uitroltrilling terwijl reverse thrust of props in beta werken. Nul voor types zonder reverse.
Meer: ruwer uitrollen onder reverse.
Minder: een discretere reverse.
Waarom hier: Sets reverse-thrust vibration with valid reverser and engine conditions. Zero removes the cue.
Doorlopende motortrilling die het toerental volgt tussen stationair en vol vermogen, de altijd aanwezige herinnering dat er voorin iets brandstof verbrandt.
Meer: meer motor in de stick.
Minder: een discretere motor.
Waarom hier: Sets estimated engine vibration using configured telemetry and response, not measured cockpit vibration.
Doorlopende trilling alleen terwijl de sim meldt dat de klepvlakken daadwerkelijk bewegen. Volgt echte actuatorbeweging en storingen, geen geschatte timer.
Meer: meer trilling met bewegende kleppen.
Minder: discretere klepbewegingen.
Waarom hier: Sets texture from observed flap movement; a command without movement does not establish the cue.
Hoe ver autopilootcommando's de stick fysiek mogen bewegen. Piepklein gehouden in MSFS, waar een bewogen as kan worden teruggelezen als pilooteninvoer; nul schakelt volgen volledig uit.
Meer: de autopiloot beweegt je stick zichtbaar meer.
Minder: een nauwelijks merkbaar volgen.
Waarom hier: Sets admitted AP-follow gain, not a percentage of travel. Runtime ownership and input limits still apply.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Following is on at 0.05 authority when a supported, valid autopilot control reference is available.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Permits centering hold during a supported AP state, separate from following a moving target.
Waarom hier: Sets admitted AP neutral-hold strength; inactive while neutral hold is disabled.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Retained for compatibility and group membership. Trim relief, rather than this flag, controls centre movement.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Allows trim relief with supported control law and valid telemetry. Axis authorities set its amount.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables local force trim, separate from aircraft-owned trim and add-on integration qualification.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Allows load-factor changes to modify permitted spring laws. Passive fly-by-wire feel can suppress it.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables rate damping with the configured coefficients and control law.
Where this effect reaches full strength (or has fully faded, for washouts).
Meer: a more gradual build to a later peak.
Minder: a quicker build.
Waarom hier: Sets the final flap index for detent normalization. UP plus three detents uses maximum index3.
Where this effect begins fading in.
Meer: the effect begins later.
Minder: it begins earlier.
Waarom hier: Sets the first flap detent that admits buffet; this is a handle index, not degrees.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables aerodynamic cues; each still needs nonzero strength and its simulator conditions.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Permits shaker at supported warning conditions; the switch does not establish aircraft equipment.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Applies the configured pitch and roll spring travel curves.
Waarom hier: Sets response at the second pitch-curve point; it is an endpoint only if its input position is full travel.
Waarom hier: Sets response at the second roll-curve point; its input position and other points determine the travel law.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables ground effects; each still needs its own strength and contact or motion telemetry.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables engine cues with nonzero settings and valid running-engine telemetry.
Whether this feature is active in this profile.
Waarom hier: Enables accessory cues with configured strengths and observed accessory movement.
The strength of this effect.
Meer: a stronger effect.
Minder: a weaker one.
Waarom hier: Sets texture from observed gear movement, separate from aerodynamic and touchdown effects.
| Parameter | Waarde | Wat het regelt en waarom |
|---|---|---|
| Spring strength | 0.58 | Mechanical links and servo-tab/roll-spoiler assistance motivate the selected speed-dependent yoke response; related flight reports support a qualitative roll-heavy balance. The baseline spring is 0.58. Its low-speed blend reaches baseline strength at 83 KIAS. |
| Spring deadband | 0.04 | Sets travel around the centre before the baseline spring resists. Smaller values engage it sooner. |
| Forces · Center starting force | 0 | Adds smoothly ramped resistance outside the centre deadband. Zero removes this preload. |
| Force gain | 0.9 | The aerodynamic-load gain is 0.9 with an indicated-speed reference of 150 KIAS. This supplies speed-dependent loading alongside the spring. |
| Master gain | 0.85 | Scales overall profile strength while preserving effect balance, subject to device and output limits. |
| Spring full-strength speed | 83 kt | Sets the IAS where the low-speed blend reaches baseline strength; high-speed stiffening also uses it. |
| Airspeed spring stiffening | 0.25 | The high-speed spring-stiffening gain is 0.25. It strengthens the permitted spring response above 83 KIAS, with the squared-speed ratio capped at 5. |
| Airspeed stiffening cap | 5 | Limits the squared airspeed ratio used for high-speed spring stiffening; it is not a device-force cap. |
| Aileron force scale | 1.3 | Roll and pitch aerodynamic scales are 1.3 and 1, respectively. They set the aerodynamic axis balance. No custom spring-travel curve is enabled. |
| Elevator force scale | 1 | Scales pitch aerodynamic loading; pitch spring travel and trim responses are separate settings. |
| Maximum output force | 0.6 | Caps directed-force output. Native spring effects and device limits remain separate. |
| Autopilot · Follow enabled | True | Following is on at 0.05 authority when a supported, valid autopilot control reference is available. |
| Autopilot · Follow authority | 0.05 | Sets admitted AP-follow gain, not a percentage of travel. Runtime ownership and input limits still apply. |
| Autopilot · Neutral hold enabled | False | Permits centering hold during a supported AP state, separate from following a moving target. |
| Autopilot · Neutral hold strength | 0.6 | Sets admitted AP neutral-hold strength; inactive while neutral hold is disabled. |
| StickFeel · Trim feel enabled | True | Retained for compatibility and group membership. Trim relief, rather than this flag, controls centre movement. |
| StickFeel · Trim relief enabled | True | Allows trim relief with supported control law and valid telemetry. Axis authorities set its amount. |
| Aero · Max flap index | 3 | Sets the final flap index for detent normalization. UP plus three detents uses maximum index3. |
| Aero · Min flap index | 2 | Sets the first flap detent that admits buffet; this is a handle index, not degrees. |
| Aero · Amplitude | 0.5 | Sets triggered shaker strength; inactive while the shaker feature is disabled. |
| Forces · Center starting force transition | 0.05 | Sets the travel used to ramp in centre preload. Wider intervals make its onset more gradual. |
| Dynamic-pressure blend | True | Allows baseline spring strength to rise with indicated airspeed where the control law permits it. |
| Minimum spring factor | 0.25 | Sets low-speed spring strength as a fraction of baseline when blending is enabled. One keeps full strength. |
| Spring wake-up speed | 10 kt | Sets the IAS where the low-speed spring blend starts rising. This is a feel threshold, not a flight limit. |
| Snelheid voor krachtafstemming | 150 kt | Sets the IAS reference for aerodynamic loading. It is an estimate, not published cruise TAS or a flight limit. |
| SpringResponse · Travel enabled | False | Applies the configured pitch and roll spring travel curves. |
| SpringResponse · Output | 1 | Sets response at the second pitch-curve point; it is an endpoint only if its input position is full travel. |
| SpringResponse · Output | 1 | Sets response at the second roll-curve point; its input position and other points determine the travel law. |
| StickFeel · Elevator authority | 0.35 | Pitch-trim relief remains a selected approximation of pressure reduction, separate from airframe length, cargo or amphibian equipment. Pitch authority 0.35 provides load relief and permitted centre movement; roll authority is 0.18. |
| StickFeel · Aileron authority | 0.18 | Scales supported roll-trim relief and permitted centre movement. Zero removes roll response. |
| StickFeel · Force trim enabled | False | Enables local force trim, separate from aircraft-owned trim and add-on integration qualification. |
| StickFeel · G load enabled | True | Allows load-factor changes to modify permitted spring laws. Passive fly-by-wire feel can suppress it. |
| StickFeel · Rate damping enabled | False | Enables rate damping with the configured coefficients and control law. |
| Aero · Enabled | True | Enables aerodynamic cues; each still needs nonzero strength and its simulator conditions. |
| Aero · Gain | 0.25 | Sets stall-buffet strength. Zero removes the cue without changing simulator stalls or warnings. |
| Aero · Gain | 0 | Sets high-Mach buffet strength; onset and full-strength thresholds are separate. |
| Aero · Gain | 0.2 | Sets flap buffet at the configured position and speed gates. Flap movement texture is separate. |
| Aero · Gain | 0 | Sets gear aerodynamic buffet; movement and ground-contact cues are separate. |
| Aero · Shaker enabled | False | Permits shaker at supported warning conditions; the switch does not establish aircraft equipment. |
| Ground · Enabled | True | Enables ground effects; each still needs its own strength and contact or motion telemetry. |
| Ground · Gain | 0.42 | Sets rolling texture strength, modified by speed, surface and undercarriage configuration. |
| Ground · Gain | 0.34 | Sets gear-bump texture during ground motion, separate from touchdown impact. |
| Ground · Gain | 0.65 | Sets landing-impact strength; landing telemetry and response shape determine the pulse. |
| Ground · Gain | 0.4 | Sets reverse-thrust vibration with valid reverser and engine conditions. Zero removes the cue. |
| Engine · Enabled | True | Enables engine cues with nonzero settings and valid running-engine telemetry. |
| Engine · Gain | 0.18 | Sets estimated engine vibration using configured telemetry and response, not measured cockpit vibration. |
| Mechanical · Enabled | True | Enables accessory cues with configured strengths and observed accessory movement. |
| Mechanical · Gain | 0.14 | Sets texture from observed flap movement; a command without movement does not establish the cue. |
| Mechanical · Gain | 0 | Sets texture from observed gear movement, separate from aerodynamic and touchdown effects. |
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| Vliegtuigen | Profiel | Simulator | Hardware | Added | Reviews | Discussion | Downloaden | Open profile |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cessna Grand CaravanC208 | Black Square Caravan Professional by Jasper_83 | MSFS | Moza AY210 | Start discussion | 266 |